Tololy's Box

Tololy,you know,as Christain arabs,or everyone I know at least,we were all outraged at his irresponsible words.Pope John Paul has spent his life preaching love and tolerance.What Pope Benedict did was obviously stupid to say the least.It shows a lot of ignorance on his Eminence’s part.The least he should have considered is the amount of  hatred he is fuelling among nations where both religions have been surviving peacefully for so many years.

I was surprised as much as you are, Salam. I had never expected this to come from the Pope, and I sincerely hope that no additional ignorance dominates the scene should some people think it appropriate, correct, or even remotely "religious" to offend the Christian faith or Christian believers. That would take matters to a worse level than the one his eminence has placed them at this critical time.

I’m not surprised. He’s been an archconservative his whole life.

I am not a Catholic — nor even a Christian — so as the saying goes, I have no god in this particular race. Reading Pope Benedict’s &lt;a href="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474"&gt;entire speech&lt;/a&gt;, however, seems to reveal that the controversial statement regarding Mohammad is, in fact, entirely innocuous and meant to be taken in context of the larger argument, which, of course, deals with the notion of enforcing religion "by the sword," as it were. Indeed, the text itself seems to deal mostly with questions of <span style="font-style: italic;">logos</span> and Hellenistic philosophy, rather than the ignorant attack on Islam that it seems to have been portrayed as. Indeed, one could easily read the piece as being far more of an attack on secularism than any supposed besmirching of Islam.<br /><br />Curious, however, is the response that the speech has gotten. In response to words discussing spreading religion by the sword we have seen demonstrators with signs proclaiming that Islam will rule the world, firebombings of churches, and nuns being assassinated. <br /><br />Curious indeed.<br /><br />At any rate, I would most definitely recommend reading the entire text of Pope Benedict’s speech. Far from being an attack on Islam, it is an interesting discussion of theology and reason from a Catholic perspective — more or less what one would expect from … you know… the Pope.<br /><br />If anyone is besmirching Islam, it is the criminals burning churches. murdering nuns, and demonstrating in the streets over a speech the text of which very few of them probably know anything about beyond those bits which they’ve been told they should be outraged about.<br />

<p>You can read as many books as you can in one weekend but what matters is how much can you understand from what you have read. Perhaps you care to enlighten yourself with an overview of Pope Benedict <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI</a>. Maybe you will be even brighter still by then!</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="commentbody">Moonem, I like what you did with
words there, it’s entertaining. </span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">It is all about "understanding" now isn’t it?
That was your message, no? – if I did not mistake your intention when you
hinted at that "what matters is how much can you understand from what you
have read". (I did not fix the syntax because I am "quoting"
you, the irony is killing me).</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">Now I wonder, and it curious just as Vincent put it, if
a person in such a high and dignified position as the Pope really understood
the critical situation we’re living in this world at this time, and if he
really realized the crucial status of inter-faith dialogue. </span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">If he did understand what messages this bit of his
speech held, would he have said it? Assuming he did understand it and said it
anyway, why did he regret it later on? Assuming he did not foresee this parade
of emotion, which I daresay is somewhat called-for and somewhat over the top,
then that is a major problem of understanding/misunderstanding on his
eminence’s side.<o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="commentbody">And yes, I do feel a little
enlightened by your comment (and link, because I care too little to upset you) .<o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>

<hr style="width: 100%; height: 2px;" />Tololy:<br /><br />I think it might be entirely possible that the Pope was throwing down the gauntlet, so to speak, and saying "any other religion wouldn’t think twice about as harmless a quotation as this… how about you?"<br /><br />The answer, as usual, has been bloodshed. Maybe, as the old cliche goes, recognition is the first step toward healing.<br /><br />And really, Moonem, can’t we be a little bit more civilized and avoid stooping to the level of "cleverly" insulting the person on whose site we’re having this discussion? It really isn’t necessary.<br />

Oh, and I missed this part the first time around:<br /><br />Tololy said:<br /><span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-3337"><span class="commentbody">Assuming he did understand it and said it
anyway, why did he regret it later on? </span></span></span><br /><br />I don’t think he said he regretted saying what he did. As I understand it, he said he regretted the response that manifested itself in the wake of his speech. A subtle yet important difference.<br />

I stand corrected, Vincent. I had understood that he regretted it, while in fact the truth is that he regretted&nbsp;<font> "that certain passages of his address
could have sounded offensive to the sensitivities of the Muslim faithful, and
should have been interpreted in a manner that in no way corresponds to his
intentions."</font>

Current discussions and problems seem too "meta", which gives some people an advantage in a highly philosophical, abstract way. I would hope that povoking people’s emotions, be that in place or not, be avoided. Sincerely speaking, it just isn’t appealing to act smart by pushing people’s buttons.

<p>Tololy and Vincent</p>
<p>My comment was in response to Tololy’s 2nd paragraph, quote:</p>
<p>After reading three books over the weekend, I can confirm that I feel slightly brighter. I wonder how many books his eminence has read about, say, Christian history or cats or automobiles or, maybe even Islam. Hmm… Quite a thought.</p>
<p>Unquote:</p>
<p>Her comment implies the Pope is an ignorant idiot! Clearly she has no clue about Pope Benedict. Hence it is wise to know about a person you intend to write about before you do so. Would you employ someone without first checking out his/her CV?</p>

<p dir="ltr">Ah. I would prefer to leave it to someone else to reply but since I am not sure anyone would want to engage in a lengthy attack-turned-argument, I will do it, hopefully for the last time.
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<p dir="ltr">Moonem, do not put words in my mouth. That’s what this discussion is about in the first place, people provoking other people’s emotions/sensitivities.
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<p dir="ltr">It is&nbsp;you who is using the words "ignorant" and "idiot". It is&nbsp;you who assumes that "clearly" someone else has "no clue" about a certain subject, and that air of certainty is repulsive.
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<p dir="ltr">But to answer your question, I would not hire someone whose CV I haven’t checked. I am certainly not hiring the Pope, he has a secure position already and he’s Holy and I don’t own a business to start with. I do not, however, necessarily have to check someone’s CV to know if they can understand the impact of their words on other people’s feelings and to understand what critical times we live in.&nbsp;That, Moomen, does not require a CV. I can just interview the person or hear them deliver a speech in <country-region w:st="on" /><place w:st="on" /><country-region w:st="on"><place w:st="on">Germany</place></country-region></place /></country-region />, for example.
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<p dir="ltr">And so, I would have hoped you did not avoid the meat of this argument by trying to insult, if that’s what you were trying to do. This will be, most likely, my last comment on the topic. I cannot be clearer in what little time I have. Bear in mind that this comments section shan’t turn into a personal battlefield (May I suggest you go over my Commenting Policy?), there is enough war out there already.
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<p class="MsoNormal" dir="ltr" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: left"><span style="mso-bidi-language: AR-JO">
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You have been &lt;a href="http://gr33ndata.blogspot.com/2006/09/very-basic-tag.html"&gt;tagged&lt;/a&gt;<br />http://gr33ndata.blogspot.com/2006/09/very-basic-tag.html<br />

First of all, when you quote someone in your speech, and you
don’t comment it, that means you are agreeing with him.
<br />Secondly, you don’t say something in your speech and then
you say “oh no, that’s not my own opinion”. Excuse me, then, whose opinion is
this???
<br />Thirdly, we are the Muslims never ever attacked neither
Jesus nor Moses, then why Christians and Jewish keep attacking Islam and
Mohammad (peace upon him)???

I really dont mean to provoke, but I honestly think that you did <span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3347">Moonem injustice. I think </span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3347">Moonem’s first comment was in place, unprovoking and educated. Yet you found his comment to be insulting forgetting that he only replicated your words about the Pope, which in a certain sense means that you meant to insult the Pope. </span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3347">Moonem was only honest and straightforward about it (unlike you; using your lingual expertise to fold it within words)!</span></span>

Mahdy:<br /><br />I confess that I find your comment utterly mystifying. Your third question in specific seems deliberately naive in light of both the annals of history in general as well as the specific cases of arson, assassination, and threats to the Pope’s life in the wake of his speech which, as I have already mentioned, I seriously doubt very many people on either side of the debate have actually read. Especially those burning churches and killing nuns.<br />

Vincent:
<br />well, you are an American citizen, and you have the courage to talk about destroying
holy places; it’s really great.
<br />How many Masjeds the American occupation troupes destroyed in
Iraq and Afghanistan?
<br />How many Islamic leaders assassinated by CIA and Mossad?
<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">I think if USA
stopped its intervention in the countries internal affairs, the whole world
will live in peace.</span>