Tololy's Box

Get a civil marriage in Cypruss </p>
<p>Besides why would atheists want to get married? They’re going to hell anyway. So why do they need&nbsp;marriage?? adultery is a religious term to begin with. </p>
<p>Do you think atheists would be offended by the "going to hell" part? Or would they get the joke? Because, you know, an atheist who believes in hell is no longer an atheist </p>

Marriage contacts are religious issues, Laws takes care of applying religious conditions to the contract in order to save the couple’s religious rights.<br /><br />This applies to Islam, Christianity and Judaism . Since Atheists&nbsp; disbelieves or denies the existence of God and his supremacy and since they believe that religions would take your whole life then religious contracts doesn’t fit them.<br /><br />At the same time, they cannot create their own rules else they would be forming a new religion (It would be interesting to have an Atheist religion . ) having said that means each couple have to agree on certain conditions and consult their solitaire to get&nbsp; it done.<br /><br />Or why do they have to have a contract? I mean, religious contracts forms your life as a partner as per religion view of life but as for Atheists what are their rules of life? who form me and who’s responsible on maintaining it.<br />&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /><br />

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Jad, a marriage contract is not just religious, it’s also a civil contract and would involve issues like pension, inheritence, adoption, and many other issues where it makes a difference if two people are "legally" married or not…<br /><br />Tololy, yeah I wondered about this before, and being Christian, I was planning on doing a little experiment when i go renew my ID by telling them I want to change my religion to Buddhist or Atheist or something… see what they say… there’s nothing in Christianity that prevents you from converting, so I’d just want to see how true "religious freedom" in this country is. <br />

Sadly, We dont have a civil court here in jordan or in any country in the arabic world.<br /><br />Whats funny in this issue is that believers for an odd reason, unknown to me, think that marriage is a religious&nbsp; invention!! as shown in the two comments above.<br /><br />While in reality marriage, as the form of a contract and agreement between two adults and with the acknowldgement of the society and their families is not a religious created rule; the other way around; marriage as an institution existed ever since women and men decieded to start families, back when history started and humans began to be social and live in deveopled forms and communities. <br /><br />Family, marriage and social life varied from age to age, the concept of a family has evolved during time and emerged from bizzare rules (to us now) to some other rules that are not in the script now adays yet we lean towards. i have no idea why a religious beliver claims the cerdit for such an insititution and set of rules even when thise form of legalization; contract and its consequences was not a red clear cut even at the days of the prophet.<br /><br />I perosnally beleive it is our right to be able to get married as non-belivers, or as belivers (many belivers in god find them selves in a relation that the religious court oppose) out side the whatever template some religion script says those can marry and those can not.<br /><br />Marriage is a form of&nbsp; organizing a relation between two adults in a socially developed community. the lack of legal attachment to this relation prevents the two adults and their families from proceeding their life the way they have the right to live (like having kids because they cant register them legally) etc .. <br />

Lina, Marriage contract is a civilized version of the religious one.<br /><br />Anyhow, assuming that it is a "civil contract", what are the atheists laws? do they have any organisation that represent them? do they have any special needs? <br /><br />In the civilized version of religious contracts court go back to religion teachings in case of conflict but in Atheists case what they should do when all of our civilized laws are descended from religion?<br /><br />Are there any country or Laws that solve the puzzle of avoiding God’s contract and obeying to human-written ones?<br /><br />A country can be secular to a certain limit but laws has always been descended from religions even if it’s presented in different shape.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br />

Well first of all the marriage is a “holly” connection between couples, and since the “holly” word is a religious one, so the marriage itself is <span class="commentbody">religious</span> </span />before being a civil and legal subject.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Second; <country-region w:st="on">Jordan</country-region> as a country has a formal religion which is Islam with a few other recognized ones such as <span class="commentbody">Christianity; so I believe it’s normal </span>and logical not to have any mentioning for others un-officially recognized religions and beliefs in <country-region w:st="on"><place w:st="on">Jordan</place></country-region>’s official foundations and documents.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">
<p>&nbsp;</p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Finally I think your wonders and experiments will be more realistic once we became a secular country (which is getting closer and closer)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Regards <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; mso-ascii-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-hansi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings"><span style="mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings">J</span></span></p>
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<p>&nbsp;</p></p>

Atheist Marriages…
the term does not sound right…
Atheist is a person who does not believe in God or any religion<br />
Marriage, basically is a religious term<span style="">,
then it was extended to identify a bong between 2 people… but still the
religion has a very huge effect on the institution of marriage<o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;" dir="ltr" class="MsoNormal"><span style="">And since Atheists does not believe
in God or religion <o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;" dir="ltr" class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Do they believe in marriage? <o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>

Well, since I am a self proclaimed atheist, I think I might give you an idea.<br /><br />First, marriage is not a religious thing. As Lina and Laila explained. Its is more of a civil thing!!<br /><br />Many atheists would not mind religious cermonies. So in a country like Jordan, an atheist might get a Christian or Islamic marriage just to get out of trouble, because atheists are not afraid of religions, they just don’t believe in it. Actually many atheists would not mind having "Christian" or "Muslim" on their birth certificates… Its just meaningless words.<br /><br />In fact most atheists are okay with the concept of marriage, be it civil marriage which is the preferred way, or ceremonial marriage if they had to.<br /><br />But as Qwaider mensioned, atheists don’t feel obliged to get married. Personally, I am part of the minority of atheists who disregard marriage. But I disregard marriage for reasons not connected to my atheist beliefs. I oppose marriage because I see it as being bad for human-human relationships. My human relationships model is the reason I disregard marriage, which is a topic outside the scope of this discussion.<br />

yup yup i can see the connection between going to hell and getting married now, such an amazing insight. and as laila said, marriage was only established by religion and is extinct outside of that boundary, you know who ever heard of a buddist or an aboriginy getting married …peesh silly ! the only reason believers aren’t just comitting adultary left right and center is because of religion for they have no purpose to not do that otherwise, <br /><br />as for jordan, it is a non sequitor, when there is freedom of religion to decide on your own religion or lack of, then that issue would be under discussion before that they can get married based on what it says on their ID card for honestly its not like it bothers anybody. and its mostly a traditional charade rather than a religious one. <br /><br />— just beside the point but i couldn’t help but single out one condesing comment there. its not the believe or the lack of when it comes to hell its the label that religion ascribes to people going to hell as evil thats all … and i think being called evil is offensive to anyone so good try there at trying to be smart <br />

Bambam, last time I checked Buddhism was a religion, just about anything you can think of is a religion. Even some forms of atheism&nbsp;are&nbsp;religions.</p>
<p>To make a long story short, I am a <strong>FIRM</strong> believer in civil marriage, I think it’s the proper way to go. Especially when I don’t recognize the authority of the shaikh or ordained member of the clergy who are going to perform the ceremony. But from a civil point of view it’s very important so that certain rights and obligations be clear according to common law. In addition to the documentation part with is very important.</p>
<p>I had a sarcastic remark about the whole issue. Frankly I think marriage is a religious institution, before religions it was some form of a chaotic polygamous all you can eat. Yes, people had some sort of culture, but it was very far from what we know today as Marriage. </p>
<p>I think all the modern societies need to adopt civil marriage, but before that make sure that there is acceptance on both sides.</p>
<p>If any atheist gets offended with the "going to hell" part, then they’re not really atheist. In addition that was a joke.</p>

What an interesting conversation going here!</p>
<p>Ofcourse you know what side I take! (Not the one of Jad, Qwaider)</p>
<p>Actually Lina, Devil’s Mind and Bambam said it well. Marriage can be a civil union for couples who wish to live the rest of their lives togather. God doesnt have to interfer. </p>
<p>Atheist have every right to have their own marriages. They can come up with the ceremony they like. </p>
<p>Lina, I am interested in knowing how it would go if you tried to change your religion. I can’t wait for you to do this experiment and let us know. Good luck!</p>

In modern times there is no clear cut delineated definition of what marriage is, some people suggested that it is a union between two people, it could be a union between a man and a woman, it could be a union between a man and another man, it could be a union between a woman and another woman, and so on and so forth. This union doesn’t have to be religious or civil union as some people suggested, it is just a union period. As far as the atheists geeting marraied, they can form a union between themselves and if they want to call this union "Marriage" so be it, who is going to oppose what two consenting adults want to to do.

qwiader my bad, i was being sarcastic there. for the record buddhism is not recognized in jordan as a religion so i was refering to that. saying athesism is a religion is like saying bald is a hair color… it just doesn’t work. <br />as for the joke I was just rationalizing why it would be offensive thats all. <br />i would love it if you can give me an example of the "<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-35920">chaotic polygamous all you can eat" marriage u were talking about, not that it changed in modern times but i think it would be hard to prove it as the origin unless u believe in evolution rather than adam &amp;eve so …. it gets a bit messy eh ?</span></span>

Origin of marriage is irrelevant… it could be religious, it could be civilian… who cares…<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>what matters is that if two people want to get married (regardless of their religious views) they have to do it religiously in Jordan, since there is no civilian marriage yet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><font face="Calibri">Also people get married not because they are religious, or because they will go to hell as some people believe if they don’t get married… but because marriage guarantees certain rights that would not be guaranteed otherwise. Even in Europe or in the USA.. if two people live together and don’t have a marriage certificate… partner and children don’t get their fair share of the inheritance if there was no legal will or no marriage certificate… and I know that because a friend of mine has been through exactly this situation in France… partner died and she is still battling with courts to get rights that a wife would had got in a heart beat…. </font></p>
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madas,
In the United States live in partners are recognized as much as marraid couples. Some companaies extend health and life insurance as well as pension payment to the surviving partner in the event that one of the two passes away. I concur that the inheritance issue is a little bit more complicated for&nbsp;the live in partners but as far as the basic life necessities such as home, car, insurance, and pension are covered for live in partners and they even don’t have to be a man and a woman, they could be two men or two women living together intimatly for a long pseriod of time.</p>

Usch.. Marriage is a promise to love one another for eternity, initially. It existed before mohammad and jesus, and will continue to exist with or without them.<br /><br />You can get a civil marriage in many parts of the world… unless you are athiest enough not to give a damn about who is wedding you!<br /><br /><br />

Very interesting discussion. I think the people who referred to marriage as a religious concept were off the mark. That said, I am a non-believer and as such I was wondering if I decide to get married one day, to a Muslim or someone like myself, then would it make ANY sense to have an Islamic document bind us? <br /><br />Perhaps the answer is yes, since I personally would not dwell on its religious value as much as its legal aspect. But the question remains; since it is an Islamic document it certainly decrees many clauses recognized by Jordanian law (regarding "dowry," inheritence, divorce, marital rights, etc) that I personally do not recognize. <br /><br />Therefore, if I don’t have a problem with it once it is drafted, I would have MANY problems with it afterwards as it will not recognize the aspects that I find important as a non-believer, and will impose many aspects I do not want and I do not believe in. <br /><br />Likewise, all of the documents that identify me say I am Muslim. I may not have a problem with that since it’s mere letters on paper, and my personal convictions are what matter, not the religion people ascribe to me. But the real problem would arise when I am in a situation where my beliefs (or the lack thereoff) are significant. <br /><br />Therein lies the problem for irreligious people in Jordan.<br /><br />Lina, I think the people who will renew your ID will give you an evil stare, and then say they’re sorry, but you have to choose to either be Muslim or Christian. Do tell me what happens when you do that.<br />

Jad,Are there any country or Laws that solve the puzzle of avoiding God’s contract and obeying to human-written ones?<br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-35904">You know that communism requires people to be atheists, right? There are religious people in communist countries, but religion is not officially sanctioned. Yet, people get married in communist countries. When I got married, I had a Christian wedding… but according to US law, there is no difference in the rights and responsibilties of a Christian couple, a Muslim couple, a Hindu couple, an atheist couple, etc. It’s the same marriage "contract" for everyone. If people choose to bring their own beliefes into their understanding of what teh amrriage is, that’s up to them – and most people do. But the law (and by extension, the American society) treats all married couples the same way.<br /><br />I’m not trying to say our way is best, just pointing out that teher are countries that have "solved" this problem, one way or another.<br style="font-style: italic;" /></span></span><span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-35904" /></span>

<span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-35930">Therefore, if I
don’t have a problem with it once it is drafted, I would have MANY
problems with it afterwards as it will not recognize the aspects that I
find important as a non-believer, and will impose many aspects I do not
want and I do not believe in.<br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-35930">Tololy, you could get married in a country that has laws you are comfortable with. The Jordanian government would have to recognize the validity of your&nbsp; marriage. The only problems might be later on, if you want to get a divorce, or with family matters that are prescribed by Jordanian law.&nbsp; </span></span><span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-35930"><br /> </span></span>

I know someone who’s grandfather fought everyone to try to get a "Billa" written on the religious field of their birthcertificates. Needless to say, it didn’t work.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br />

Another note, I always wondered about the same thing. It’s really ironic getting bound with something that you don’t care for.<br />Btw, we need to talk!<br />

<p>Marriage was designed by the human race long before the so-calleed divine religions were introduced to the society. In fact, morals and ethics were long developed before religion but our totalitarian religious culture has managed to erase any memories of anything before religion. </p>
<p>My problem is not athiest marriage. They can be athiests in practice and yet do that religious charade, but the real issue is the forbidden love between muslims and Christians. Lots of heartbreaking tales have been destroyed because of religious differences. I do not see any Arab country, with this religious social terrorism hanging on everyone’s head moving to civil marriage systems. maybe Tunisia has done brilliantly in terms of secularism but still their marriage rituals are religious, and still use that word which I am sorry to say that I really dislike which is nikah!</p>
<p>Did I just sign my takfeer document? </p>
<p></p>

Well, one thing u miss out here… Many atheists marry partners with beliefs… In such cases, it is common for the atheist to conform to the traditions of their partner. You know, it can be that ceremonial marriage might mean nothing for one side, but mean something to the other side.

No you can’t get that done in Jordan! This is to answer your question.<br />&lt;b&gt;How do atheists get married in Jordan?&lt;/b&gt;<br />Now, non belivers in Jordan have been always smart enough,that not to get into some usless arguments and bring some havoc over some "minor" issue!<br />You are of a Muslim background? This didn’t stop them from reading the Fate7a at a funreal, or getting them married by a Sheikh! They have been doing this for years and years. Or from having people of Christian background puttining a Christmas Tree or running for the Christian seat in the elections.<br /><br />This whole notion that as a young person you have to FIGHT THE SYSTEM and question everything, rebel on your backward society and its crazy intolerant people ,avoid religious people , follow your dreams and heart, give teenagers free condoms and morning-after pills, make explicit sexual education mandatory to end the Garbage-babies,is with due respect,&nbsp; is a waste of time and people in Jordan will view you as another person who can not face reality and keeps spewing the old liberal vomit! <br /><br />There are thousands of issues you could boil your blood over in Jordan and waste your energy on. <br /><br />How you view marriage is a personal issue! And I respect people for the choices they make! Whither they get a religious marriage just because it’s the social norm, but they don’t believe in it, or wear Hijab or fight over removing the religion field from the ID card, I would still respect them as humans, would keep my opnion to myself or share it with them if they ask, but would never hurt or insult them. It is just their choice, and would not waste my time thinking about their issues.&nbsp; <br /><br />What I really wanted to say, if you are an athiest Jordanian couple who really love each others and feel they are ready,&nbsp; you have these options:<br /><br />1. Make a big scene out of this, go to international media, demonstrations, family feudes, fights with the school adminstration, living with the false impression that you have a goal in life <br />or<br />2. Just take it like all other athiest Jordanians, and start working on estbalishing a liberal-non religious party that in 50 years will sweep the elections and we’ll become the new- old Turkery (considering the fact that they are turning religious)<br />or<br />3. Accept your reailty and live happily in your society accepting all its defects (from your prespective) and respecting its people’s choices even if they didn’t make sense to you, simply enjoying life and being in peace with your self!<br />Look it is your problem! Deal with it <br /><br />Tololy, Adigas have the coolest marriage option! Go with Khteefeh, a guy would just ride his motorcycle,grab her from her parents house ,and run for it while her dad is shooting at you…..this is so romantic.<br /><br />

Batir, you’re absolutely right about how tragic it is that Muslims and Christians can’t get married easily. It is so unfair to not be able to be with someone you love because of, as you eloquently put it, the social terrorism in the name of religion. It feels like a mideval Shakepearean plot. What also kills me is that with most families that object, it has nothing to do with deep religious faith, but more of cultural and social traditions. Christian families find it offensive that the law allows Muslim men to marry Christian women but not vice versa, and as a religious minority, they feel they need to protect their identity or something… it drives me nuts when people start gossiping and bashing the girl who went off and married a Muslim against her families will… <br /><br />and…people should have the option of getting married with a simple civil contract, because there are so many issues connected to the marriage contract, and as Tololy said, even if you go with the religious contract to avoid complication, there would come a time when you find yourself having to deal with things you don’t believe in to start with!!<br />

My takes:

Marriage was not founded by religion, religions basically regulated it. It is basically what ties a couple for life (supposedly), and the rules and the definition of it evolved with time and religion</li>
<li>Cross beliefs marriages are always hard to work out, from any issue you might have with the parents, to how you perform your ceremony, to what governs the marriage when it comes to legal issues, to how the kids are raised. But as long the couple have an agreement on all aspects before tying the knot, then it should be fine.</li></ol>

Normally Ma2thoons and priest are responsible for submitting religious marriage documents to "da2eret al a7wal al madaneyeh" within 30 days or they will be fined, for a marriage contract to be valid it needs 2 witnesses. One can go to a judge or a designated court official for exceptional marriage contracts. Having an undocumentated marriage, a "3orfy" civil marriage is punishable by law, even when a lawyer writes the marriage contract it is still not valid unless properly recorded.<br /><font size="4" face="Arabic Transparent">يشترط
قانون الأحوال الشخصية الأردني لصحة
عقد الزواج حضور شاهدين اثنين مسلمين
رجلين أو رجل وامرأتين إذا كان
الزوجان مسلمين عاقلين بالغين، وأن
يسمع الشهود الإيجاب والقبول. وقد نصت
المادة 17 من قانون الأحوال الشخصية
على وجوب مراجعة الخاطب للقاضي أو
نائبه لإجراء العقد، ويتم إجراء عقد
الزواج من قبل مأذون شرعي بموجب وثيقة
رسمية، وللقاضي بحكم وثيقته في حالات
استثنائية أن يتولى إجراء العقد بإذن
من قاضي القضاة. ونصت المادة على أنه
إذا جرى عقد الزواج بدون وثيقة رسمية
فيعاقب كل من العاقد والزوجين
والشهود المنصوص عليها في قانون
العقوبات الأردني، <br /><br /></font>The risk with acting married then trying to get any documents from the court to support your rights as a married couple after the fact, is that your case more likely than not will turn into a punishable case of adultry "Qadeyet Zinna". Play by the rules of the country you live in, our laws are not that strange i was amused to find that in Syria you are required to have permission from wazaret el dakheleyeh before marrying a non arabian foreigner probably cause of issues of national security <br /><br />Tangent … If you are a non-believer why&nbsp;do you wear a hijab? or is it forced on you? or do you no longer wear it and i have missed something ?<br /><span lang="en" style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: &quot;Simplified Arabic&quot;; color: black;"></span>

Ya Firas, I can’t do khteefeh! People don’t recognize me as Adiga because my father is Arab, twisted mentalities if you ask me. <br /><br />Thanks a lot for the information you provided, Maha. You haven’t missed anything because I didn’t mention anything. More on that later…<br />

When the West became godless and wanted to be ruled by scientific facts a few hundred years ago they needed to find a word for all the stuff that could not be scientifically explained… mmm everything that is not fact… must be faith! and so the word religion was invented, and it means "everything you can’t explain with science"… <br /><br />When the English turned up in India and the ME they could not understand much at all so they thought these people are very religious…<br /><br />You can’t separate religion from culture guys!!! Its like separating Arabic from Arab culture… They are totally intertwined…<br /><br />The only place the word religion makes sense is when one is a true believer in science…(see above definition)<br /><br />Islam, Hinduism, Buddism… are more than just "religions", thats why there is so much problem having secularism forced on to them… Islam is deen wa dawleh<br /><br />A better word than religion is "worldview", it is how I see and understand the world. Islam, Christianity, Buddism are a worldview… so is Atheism by the way they are the only people that use the word religion properly because it comes out of their scientific worldview… <br /><br />So if Islam is a religion then you are using the word to mean worldview, and therefore Atheism is a religion too. If you are using it as an Atheist it means "unscientific" or just plain foolish… but then that just part of intolerant Atheist religious jargon..<br /><br />Cheers<br />BJ<br />

A link for those interested
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage</a></p>

Very interesting topic! I know in America, religion is an important topic but is not inscribed into society.  You don’t have to be religious in order to get married in the US but I believe successful marriages are influenced by a spiritual connection.