Tololy's Box

I do see your point… The problem is that a lot of abuse in our side of the world takes place in the name of religion… the problem is compounded when the abuse is based on faulty or rigid interpretations of Islam (in our case)… take England <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>for example… they decided to adopt multiculturalism and allow religious freedom…. They actually defied Europe that was taking the assimilation track. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>What happened? July bombings, Scotland airport incident, several terrorist episodes… etc. So they decided that maybe multiculturalism and religious freedom is not the right way after all…
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span lang="en" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><font face="Calibri">This is happening to Turkey… Turkey is trying hard to join the EU. The only way is by becoming secular and sacrifice religious freedom… which actually makes me wonder about the whole debate of democracy and if there is anything called absolute democracy.
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It’s a war against Islam I believe; the veiled is the symbol of Islamic women;</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">And preventing it or preventing wearing it in a certain places/countries is actually a concealed assault on Islam itself.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Isn’t that another evident type of racialism?! Isn’t it the exact behavior and trend forced the “black” people too many years ago by the same countries that call for democracy nowadays?!!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">What would happen if any Islamic country issued a law (for example) preventing Christian people from wearing the “Cross” in universities and schools?! I think we’ll have a “floor broke loose” then.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Well I am totally against that too, but I do believe that the modern world has a doubled measure when it comes to Islam.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Tololy thanks a lot for this post, finally I agreed with you on something </p>

"Let the girls in universities, Turkey! You can’t force them to discard
their beliefs to get an education! Don’t become another right-wing
France!"<br /><br />I completely agree. If&nbsp; Turkey is truly to become part of the European community, it must acknowledge religious fredom.<br />

"For a country to be truly respectful of human rights, and to be
secular, it must not interfere with the religious practices of its
people."<br />
&nbsp;I totally agree!&nbsp; secular, modern Turkey my a**!!! YES, "Let the girls
in universities, Turkey! You can’t force them to discard their beliefs
to get an education!"<br /><br />
I’ve always wondered what deifenes seculaism and moderninty in such
middle eastern backward countries, including Tunisia under the rulings
of Habib Bourguiba and Zine El Abdine Ali. In the "Modern Tunisia", the days when Bourguiba ratified the anti-hijab decree,women who insisted on wearing
hijab at schools or government offices faced losing their jobs..some even have been
arrested. Worse than that, in some towns the vile was torn off women on the streets by
police, and these women were sometimes subjected to sexual abuse.<br />
&nbsp;In 2006, right after France banned the hijab in schools, Tunisia also
reinforced a law of banning the hijab, but it wasn’t as strick as the
earlier days. Women were allowed to only wear the headcover to schools,
nonetheless they MUST show some of the hair. <br />
ha! i guess i need to be reminded of what a hijab is, and why it’s observed!
do we ever hear of what happens in Tunisia, Turkey, .. etc???
or is it just the Taliban’s brutal opression of women including forcing
them in a head-to-toe-cover , who aren’t less a**holes than Turkey and
Tunisia, we hear of?… grrrrrrrr..This subject angers me!<br />
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see Toloey, because i was worked up, i haven’t reviewed the comment, lool<br /><br />&nbsp;spelling corrections:<br />defines, secularism, modernity, strict, oppression.. loool and maybe a couple of other words I still can’t stop, in the light of this heated topic! <br />

Religious freedom is a must, if you suppress any religious group, that won’t be good for you or the world!</p>
<p>I totally agree that Turkey shouldn’t do that, France shouldn’t do that, whoever shouldn’t do that. But whenever the issue of a country "forbidding"" Hijab arises, the same question always hits me, what will happen if a Muslim country did this for Christians or any religious group? As Abdullah said:&nbsp; <em>"I think we’ll have a “floor broke loose” then."</em> But&nbsp;then I look at Saudi and see the opposite.</p>
<p>You have Christians living there from all over the world, and they are not allowed to wear crosses, go to church,&nbsp;or&nbsp;even reveal their hair in most of the country, and they respect that. They went to that country by choice and they need to adapt. And you don’t see Arabs calling for freedom of religion! And you say the rest of the world has double standards when it comes to Islam?</p>
<p>If you live in a country, you have to respect its laws and views, fair or unfair. If you are a citizen of the country, you try to change things, but you must always stay respectful of the other, no matter how&nbsp;unfair or irrational you think they are. If you are an expat, you either hold your peace, or go back home, no one is forcing you to stay, just don’t go offending the people welcoming you to their country.</p>

i have to say im undecided on this issue. on one hand, the country is a secular one and religious symbols would be against it, on the other hand as you said, its rather discriminatory to only allow non-veiled women into universities. here’s what bugs me though. protests and demonstrations raided the world when France was to prohibit the veil in school, and like here to allow the veils in Turkish universities, but i, have never heard of protests to allow non-veiled women in Saudi Arabia for example. isn’t that discrimination as well? we cannot exercise religious freedom for only one religion.

You have Christians living there from all over the world, and they are not allowed to wear
crosses, go to church,&nbsp;or&nbsp;even reveal their hair in most of the
country, and they respect that.<br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-36832">It’s a bigger problem than that, sk8erboi.</span></span> Saudi Arabia doesn’t even allow citizenship to anyone who isn’t Muslim. Non-Muslims are judged by Islamic law (which is forbidden by the Quran, according to my reading of it), no non-Muslim can go to Mecca or Medina, and so on. Forbidding Christians to wear crosses? That’s a triviality. The human rights violations (freedom of religion, specifically) are so eggregious in Saudi Arabia that i don’t think anyone even believes there is much point to trying to protest them.<br /><br />I think that’s what Turkey wants to avoid. If Tololy’s stats are right, that Turkey is 98% Muslim, it isn’t an unjustified fear that Turkey could go the way of Saudi Arabia. That’s an extroardinarily high percentage.<br /><br />It’s an excellent point about schools, though. Women who wear the hijab should not be excluded from higher education just because they won’t comply with a law that they feel violates their religious duties. <br /><br />If it wasn’t for examples like Iran and Saudi Arabia, of how bad things can be for non-Muslims or liberal Muslims in an Islamic country, I’d be totally opposed to this law on human rights grounds. As it is, I’ve got mixed feelings. So, I’ll shut up now <br /><br /><span class="commentTitle" style="font-style: italic;"><font size="2"> </font></span>

Farah, hijab is not a religious symbol or an identity marker. It is simply a modest code of dressing observed by Muslim women (it was observed also by Jewish as well as Christian women far before Islam came into being)as a means to fulfill a religious obligation. For those Muslim women who decide to wear it, it is a religious obligation, which means it is a religious practice such as, praying, fasting, performing pilgrimage, …etc. <br />yes, i know that lots of Muslim women might observe it for different reasons, but we aren’t in their heads and this isn’t the case we are discussing over here. The point is that hijab is a religious obligation, not an id signifier or an accessory, and that is what makes it different than other religious symbols, such as wearing a cross by Christians or a kippah. So when Turkey, Tunisian, or France ban it, they are depriving these women from practicing a religious obligation.<br /><br />

If I were in Turkey, I would not have marched with them. For a country
to be truly respectful of human rights, and to be secular, it must not
interfere with the religious practices of its people. Granted, the laws
governing their lives should not stem from any particular religion or
enforce religious doctrine, but to prevent someone from wearing a veil
to school? To destroy a person’s educational prospects just because she
chooses, or is forced to, cover her hair? That is the epitome of
discrimination.<br /></div><br />OK, but why are moderate Muslims always more agitated at the enforced secularism of Turkey than at the enforced religiosity of, say, Saudi Arabia?<br />

Tommy, if by ‘moderate Muslims’ you were referring to me, your reference was an error. I will write about women in Saudi Arabia and other ultra-religious societies. It’s only a matter of time and will.<br /><br />

I agree with “Secratea”, previously I mentioned that “‘Hijab’ is <span class="commentbody">the symbol of Islamic women</span>” ok that was inappropriate expression, as “</span />Secratea” mentioned <span class="commentbody"><i>it is a religious obligation, which means it is a religious practice. </i>But for KSA it’s not forbidding any religious practice for non-Muslims (as far as I know), and there are many compounds for them where they can go to church, dress however they like and act as their normal way.
<p></p></span></p><span class="commentbody"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">And yes forbidding a religious practice is a quite different than forbidding a religious symbol.</span></span>

Turkey has one of the worst human-rights records ever – this is not liberation, yet extreme oppression and forcing the people to believe what most believe. So it’s an extreme and extreme is wrong.<br /><br />Live and let live, I have many Turkish friends they’re great but they tend to be quite ignorant when it comes down to them identifying themselves as Muslims as they personally have very ‘interesting’ believes. Yet I personally don’t let that come between us, but I still feel sorry for them as they idolised Ataturk and they don’t quite see the damage he caused to a whole culture and religion.<br /><br />Being modern after all does not happen when you completely discard your old culture, yet it comes when you acknowledge it and preserve it. That’s just my opinion. <br />

Abdullah,

and there are many compounds for them where they can go to church, dress however they like and act as their normal way."<br /><br /></span></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-37303"><span class="commentbody">Is that a joke? What would you say if Germany had a similar system?</span></span></span><span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-37303"><span class="commentbody"><br /></span></span></span>

I tend to agree with you, Tololy.<br /><br />The Turkish government is in the wrong on this one, but as other recent events prove, the Turkish government has a rather slippery grasp on the idea of freedom on expression in any case.<br />

But for KSA it’s not forbidding any religious practice for non-Muslims (as
far as I know), and there are many compounds for them where they can go
to church, dress however they like and act as their normal way.</span></span></span><br /><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-37303"><span class="commentbody" /></span></span></div><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-37303"><span class="commentbody"><br />Actually, churches are prohibited in KSA, Abdullah. There isn’t a single church in all of Saudi Arabia.&nbsp; That is well known.&nbsp; And most certainly Saudi citizens are not free to choose their own religion.&nbsp; Even bringing Bibles into the country can be very problematic.<br /></span></span></span>

Turkey has one of
the worst human-rights records ever – this is not liberation, yet
extreme oppression and forcing the people to believe what most believe.
So it’s an extreme and extreme is wrong.</span></span><br /><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-38045" /></span></div><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-38045"><br />Its human rights record is mostly blighted by the persecution of Kurds, Armenians, and others.&nbsp; These are the kind of people Arab states (like the Baathists under Saddam) have never had a problem persecuting either.&nbsp; While not perfect, Turkey’s government is more democratic than most Arab regimes.<br /></span></span>

Craig, those compounds are for these peoples’ sake, and trust me they do prefer living in it than living in any regular neighborhood, I even prefer living there myself.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Am not here to judge this is right or wrong but yet there is no forbidding for their religious practice and this is the essence of this post.</p>

[...] attempt to sue the not-sufficiently-secular government that has unbanned it in public universities. I wrote about this before, arguing that no government has the right to dictate citizens’ fashions, and I was jubilant [...]