Tololy's Box

The dark ages !! lolz! well, it is kinda true , they might burn a witch on the stake in&nbsp; Saudia ! </p>
<p>I have met an American couple who are here to study Arabic , the problem is that I don’t buy it! I am not a paranoid person but the questions they ask do not fall under the catigory of " I wanna know more about life in Jordan" !&nbsp; </p>
<p>We have talked a lot of Islam, Christianity,Hijab but the most surprising question was : what do you feel about your family ? how is ur relationship with them! Is it just like all Arabs, u know as in they are my family and I gotta live with that?!&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<p>I once found a weird sentence in the guy’s copy book: هل أنت خلقة أم صدفة؟</p>
<p>If all that you are doing is learn Arabic ,that sentence is not one of the basics !! I think they are missionaries because they told me they were in Africa before&nbsp;with a christian group to help people&nbsp;there.</p>
<p>&nbsp;They are really nice but I do not like the Idea of them trying to influence me and my family while pretending that they are here " just to learn" !! If they want to preach all they need to do is ask : P I will listen and argue ! </p>
<p></p>

any muslim who wants to leave islam should get a "good riddance" response from muslims. no more, no less. do we really need poeple who only belive in the higest bidding god? or do we need muslims who see the Light only when they see Cash? there are over 1 billion muslims around the world, many are worthless. i say we should encourage&nbsp; those to convert to any other religion they want. Bring on the american missionaries, Buddhist monks, Hindu clerks, Scientology lunatics to Jordan. i beg them to please come and help us clean house.&nbsp;

This is new… and dangerous! And it’s completely not as simple as you think Rahmaan "<span class="commentbody">come and help us clean house</span>" it’s not about religion converting only, there is a more serious threat </span />from these <span class="commentbody">missionaries</span> than converting and there is a lotta interrogation points about them, why is the secrecy and disguise for</span />? Why in <country-region><place>Jordan</place></country-region>? Why at this time? Am afraid they don’t really care for people to join Christianity as much as they care for other stuff!
<p></p></p>

I feel like I should comment on this, since I’m a Christian… but I can’t think of a thing to say, since I have no idea what’s going on in Jordan.<br /><br />Hmmm….<br /><br />Well, I have an Uncle and Aunt who were missionaries with the aborigines in Australia back in the 1970s.<br /><br />Isn’t it illegal to be a missionary in Jordan? I’m pretty sure I read that someplace. If so, they have a lot more guts than I do. <br />

They have been here for years, another step forward, Mutajadideen , or born agains(they wish)&nbsp;have been around trying to get Christian Jordanians like myself for a long long time. Now they are stepping it up by targeting Muslims, the atmosphere in Jordan allows for that today as opposed to a few years ago when it was still hard for them to take such actions. I despise these people to the max because they are purely politically inclined and they are literally willing to &nbsp;I know them and I studied them for a while now. back in my US days I remember when a pretty Jahova’s witness tried to show me the truth by luring me to a date( church group) through "un-orthodox" means. Irony intended.

Markus, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not evangelicals. I’m pretty sure there isn’t anyone who even considers them to be Christian, except themsleves.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah’s_Witnesses<br /><br />Just an FYI. <br /><br />PS-That girl you are describing sounds pretty nutty for a Jehovah’s Witness. They are pretty insane when it comes to sex outside of marriage.<br />

Missionary work fascinates me very very much, primarily because I feel it uses people’s basic needs (services, someone to listen, etc) to achieve its goals. But also because like Markus and Lost Within remarked, it expands and develops and the missionaries never come out straight and tell you what they want from you exactly. That’s sneaky in my opinion.

[...] Here are some reactions from the Jordanian blogosphere: Toloy [...]

I’m pretty sure god Said Not to Kill. There are exceptions, but not because you’re worshipping wrongly.

Christians&nbsp;are our brothers and sisters&nbsp;in Jordan, been living freely and respectfully in Jordan for ages, they have hundreds of churches,they are ministers,civil servants ,police and army ..ect, we muslim also celebrate many of their festivals and as muslims are told to believe in Christ by Almighty Allah. Evangelicals are however a different sect of Christians and they actually profess their loyality to Judiasm more than to Christianity. They are staunch supporters of Israel&nbsp; right or wrong and raise huge funds for jewish settlements in Palestine is opposition to U.N. recommendations. Just watch many of the hundreds of TV channels in America and learn the hate their leaders spew against Islam and Arabs in general. That Christians churches distanced themselves from evangelicals shows how loyal to Jordan&nbsp; Christians are.

<span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-40122">Evangelicals are
however a different sect of Christians and they actually profess their
loyality to Judiasm more than to Christianity.<br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-40122">Christianity doesn’t have any position on Islam. It didn’t even exist when Christian scripture was written. So, w</span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-40122">hy don’t you shut the hell up, "Ahriman"? </span></span><span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-40122" /></span>

It is not helpful to say that all evangelicals are this or that.<br />Individual misbehavior should be dealt with on an individual basis.<br />I am an evangelical Christian and can say with assurance that we are not taught to be loyal to Judaism, but to regard the teachings of the Torah as a beginning point of God’s revelation to mankind, but certainly not the final word. We also recognize that Europeans and peoples of Middle Eastern origin of any faith are neither angels nor monsters, but all are in need of prayer and encouragement. Most of us want to work in cooperation with Jordanian churches not in competition. I do not make excuses for those who have done wrong, but it is too easy to blame all people for the errors of a few.<br />As to the question of providing material aid to Jordanians, I understand the claim that this is done as a pretext to gain permission to share our faith, but if we did not help people in need, would we not be accused of having no compassion for the suffering of the world? Perhaps simply more openess about the intent to minister to the material and spiritual needs of our brothers in Jordan is needed to avoid misunderstandings.<br />

<p>I live in GB so Know little about Jordan, I can’t comment on your local situation. </p>
<p>Here in Britain the divide between&nbsp;Muslims &amp; Christians is being encouraged by fanatics on both sides, ably abetted&nbsp; by some branches of the media.&nbsp; This has led to very nasty incidents, suspician and hatred, there are accusations of separatism etc.&nbsp;</p>
<p>We have problems with groups who try to impose their religious views on others, they often target the vulnerable and emotionally lost. I suspect they are simply playing the numbers game, the more adherents they attract the greater their power;&nbsp;higher numbers also of course enhance their own egos. Nasty.</p>
<p>Sadly reigion has become entangled with politics and world power. This link should not be encouraged or supported. For those who believe in the Creator God to apparently believe that some people/spiritual paths are in some way unworthy is inconsistent. At best most of us muddle through, trying to understand the imponderables of Life, those who seek to browbeat us into believing as they do in pursuit if their own, often self seeking, views should be treated with caution. There are many ways to God.&nbsp;</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>

Interestingly many of those expelled are Arabs.&nbsp; No where is there actually any claim that anyone offered anybdy anything to become a Christian so the idea of converting under false pretenses is invalid.&nbsp; The&nbsp;whole argument that someone would leave their religion for money or a job in&nbsp;a developed society is corrupt.&nbsp;&nbsp;Those who offer such an argument must not have any religious or cultural depth.&nbsp; To change religion flows from the very depth of the soul.&nbsp; My city has 1 million Muslims and I have never met&nbsp;one Muslim that is so shallow.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

<p><span class="commentTitle"><font size="2">""<a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17566950406349754166" rel="external nofollow"><font color="#cc0033">Craig</font></a> </font>says:</span> <br /><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-40127"><span class="commentBody" style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><span id="comment-40122">Evangelicals are however a different sect of Christians and they actually profess their loyality to Judiasm more than to Christianity.<br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-40122">Christianity doesn’t have any position on Islam. It didn’t even exist when Christian scripture was written. So, w</span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-40122">hy don’t you shut the hell up, "Ahriman"? ""</span></span></span></span></p>
<p><span class="commentBody"><span><span class="commentBody"><span>Craig ran out of constructive argument and resorted to abuse. So blinded by rage he did not get to understand the post. God warrior he is, isn’t he? I can picture him in the front rows of the huge auditoriums where evangelicals leaders spew hate toward Islam and collect donations in exchange for pryers to cure diseases and&nbsp; and bring wealth!!!!!!!</span></span></span><br /></span></p>

<p>""Take out your cheque books, a donation of 100 dollars will bring you 100,000 dollars in days. Take our you cheques. She did not walk since 50 years and look at her now , she is dancing on the stage after recieving the prayer. Halleluja.Praize the Lord.&nbsp; Are we&nbsp;back to the middle ages when the popes sold tickets to heaven. Any God fearing christian will shudder at this hearing those preachers.</p>

<span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-40153"><span class="commentBody"><span><span class="commentBody"><span>Craig ran out of constructive argument and resorted to abuse. So blinded by rage he did not get to understand the post.<br /><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-40153"><span class="commentBody"><span><span class="commentBody"><span>I understood exactly what you were claiming. You were claiming that Christians who show preference for Judaism over Islam are not "real" Christians. Which means you got it precisely backwards. It’s called the "Judeo-Christian tradition" for a reason. Judaism is very much a part of Christianity. Islam is not.<br /><br />By the way, I got the fact that you were using the Zoroastrian name for Satan as your name here, too, didn’t I? I find it a bit mind boggling that somebody who calls himself the devle feels he has something to contribute on a post about religion. You’re either an atheist or an actual satan warshipper. But most likely an atheist, who thinks it’s funny to mess with people who aren’t, right? <br /></span></span></span></span></span></span><span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-40153"><span class="commentBody"><span><span class="commentBody"><span> </span></span></span></span></span></span>

A.Rehman is short for AbulRehman and Abd mean a subject of Allah or a slave of Allah if you will, a very common muslim name. This forum is supposed to be a&nbsp;moderated one, how do sneak your abusive comments Christian Warrior. Fanatics in every religion are the cause of mankind ills mainly those with lowly IQ. You should watch CNN’s C.Amanpour "God warriors" may be if you get to understand it,which is doubtful, you can see yourselve as a prime example.

Get some education Christian Warrior and learn why the Guardians of the Temple insisted that the Roman governor must crucify Jesus Christ, the Roman ,a pagan, felt he is devine and hesitated but bowed to the will of the Rabais to avoid a riot.

<p>Read&nbsp; at the link below God warrior</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_evangelist_scandals">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_evangelist_scandals</a></p>

<p>My apologies to the other decent evanglical posters like <span class="commentTitle"><font size="2">Wesleyfriend .</font></span></p>
<p><span class="commentTitle"><font size="2"><strong>I don’t group all evangelicals together , there is the good ,the bad and the ugly as in all faithes. But isn’t there one scandal too many here for your comfort and it is at the very top too. Don’t you faithful and decent folks question why? Is there something that attracts bad apples to your faith.</strong></font></span></p>

<p>FROM THE HORSE’S MOUTH . </p>
<p>God warrior Craig</p>
<p>Read so you may see the light.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ajc.com/living/content/living/stories/2008/02/22/Israel_0223.html">http://www.ajc.com/living/content/living/stories/2008/02/22/Israel_0223.html</a></p>

<p>Televangelist REv. John Hagee. Quote unguote</p>
<p>John Hagee, the rotund, right-wing, Pentecostal televangelist, founder of Cornerstone Church, and JHM Ministries saw prosperity during the bull market of the Clinton years. Hagee handily raised obscene amounts of tax emept money for larger church buildings, a private television studio, hi-tech recording studio for his children’s singing group, and a lavish exclusive 500 bed resort for church members only located in the small Texas Hill Country town of Tarpley, complete with it’s own man-made lake suitable for water skiing modestly referred to as "Cornerstone Church Camp." </p>
<p>This August after USAA, San Antonio’s largest employer unexpectedly laid off 1370 employees, Lucent Technologies followed suit; these layoffs coming on the heels of the Southwestern Bell Communications unprecedented offer of early retirements buyouts, the closure of Kelly Air Force Base, and an additional 22 percent of San Antonio employers interviewed saying they were considering summer layoffs. Hagee reacted launching an extreme campaign sermon series called "Mastering Your Money." </p>
<p>In this series currently televised on TBN, Hagee likened a trade on today’s stock market to a trade of deck chairs on the Titanic. Alternatively, he promised that an investment in his Cornerstone Church would yield a ten thousand percentage profit to the giver awarded directly from God. Ever conscious of San Antonio’s large Catholic population, Hagee blatantly insisted any monetary gift given to a Sister, would yield no such increase because the giver would be receive the glorification instead of God. In addition, Hagee; during a fit of yelling, rapid snapping of his plump fingers, and insistent pounding on the pulpit with tightly curled fists, promised that those watching and choosing not to give money to his Cornerstone Church would receive a financial curse administered directly by God. </p>
<p>This is not the first time the Hagee has resorted to outrageous methods for raising cash. Several years ago, Hagee stirred a raging controversy in San Antonio’s black communities when he advocated a "Slave Sale" in which students of his private Cornerstone Christian School were to be auctioned off in exchange for cash. </p>

<p>More on Evanglist leaders scandals and corruption.</p>
<p>Do we want this for our beloved Jordan? Salutations to the Board of churches in Jordan for taking their courageous stand.</p>

I am sorry to see that the great religious divide exists on this thread. Where are the voices of reason?where is the peace and love which both Islam and Christianity claim as their foundations? </p>
<p>We live in a very troubled world, many die&nbsp; every day&nbsp; while commenters trade insults. I despair. Please don’t fall into the traps set for you by extremists, you demean yourselves and your religion. </p>

<p>&nbsp;am sorry to see that the great religious divide exists on this thread. Where are the voices of reason?where is the peace and love which both Islam and Christianity claim as their foundations? </p>
<p>The divide is unfortunately getting greater. Extremism on all sides is gaining but let us not point fingers at only muslim extremists( Iam not saying you do). The past few years mnay European countries governments have&nbsp;fallen into the hands of of the far-right or right of centre or christian conservatives and all stand for less tolerance for other religions ( here it is Islam). In the current American election religion is a huge factor that the TIME magazine publish a weekly indicator called God-O-Meter that report how contestants stand on relgion.&nbsp; Rudi Guiliani main election platform is " carrying on with the fight against Islam terrorism" exact words , note he did&nbsp; does not say some muslim extremists. While most Arab and majority muslim countries are fighting extremism, in the West christians extremists are getting a tacit approval, should try to fly American airlines with a name like Ahmed and Mohammad or with a beard. and see the scrutiny you garner. The only mitigating factor that does not make for a free for all war on&nbsp;muslims at grass roots level in the West is – so far- respect for the rule of law and the constitution&nbsp;and the bills of rights and that those societies in general don’t take matters into their hands and don’t in general resort to herd or mob violence , in other words they are more civilized when comapred to the sheep in the East. God help muslims when islamophobia trickles from the top down to the average Joe and Jane and it is&nbsp;deemed patriotic to banish and punish the muslim demons. Iam loathe to extremism and counts among my friends many Christians , Hindus, Buddists and at one time a&nbsp;Jew&nbsp;who moved to other place.</p>

Thanks for your response. I agree with all you say re. "Islamaphobia" in the west. It is sadly the case that many politicians need an "enemy" to point fingers at in order to consolidate their power base. Nothing like fear to concentrate the minds of voters. </p>
<p>I am making a plea for people of all religious persuasions to ignore the extremists in their midst. Some argue that Jews, Christians and Muslims should fight extremists from within. I wonder if this would work without&nbsp; engendering further violence and bloodshed?&nbsp; Certainly the past &nbsp;religious wars within the then almost totally Christian west show that ,historically at least, Christian could kill Christian over a point of theology. </p>
<p>Religious extremism which seeks to dominate the minds and lives of other is worthy only of contempt. It is opportunist and powerseeking. An unwatered plant will wither and die. Is the current upsurge of religous intolerance firmly rooted or is it, as I would hope, a seedling which would shrivel up if ignored. </p>
<p>It is good that we can talk without attacking each other, not very long ago polite discussion would have been the norm.</p>

I thank you for being polite, I got verbally attcked countless times, latest by a Craig who told me to shut the**** up and accused me of being a satanist , may be I got carried away with a barrage of links and articles to prove a point. Anyway here is a link which almost echo your concerns and shows that extemism is the oddity not the norm,&nbsp; yet.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/19438/internal_terrorism_and_christian_fundamentalists.html">http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/19438/internal_terrorism_and_christian_fundamentalists.html</a></p>

The DEVIL is having some of his greatest moments as evil brews all over the globe. Man capacity for violence ,murder and torture is limited only by his&nbsp;imagination., Iam not optimistic about the future as of now. I look at children playing merrily near my home and my thoughts jump to countless orphaned children and babies crying the nights away, hungry, craving the touch of parents no more there to give them a hug or a breast or a bottle in Iraq, in Afghanstan, in Palestine&nbsp;and in Africa even in America and Australia. I look at the governmet sanctioned savagery limited only by technological advancement in bomb making and rocketry in America and Israel, I see the inhuman conditions in which prisoners are kept and treated in Guantanamo,I hear of arson and&nbsp;mass murders in Africa,&nbsp;I&nbsp;imagine Iraqis drilling each other heads while alive and despair if the goodness in humans will ever resurface. All will quote you the Koran or the bible or the Torah or the Gita or this and that saint or imam.

I’ve visited Jordan. &nbsp; I must have been proselytized by Muslims wanting me to convert a zillion times. &nbsp;&nbsp; Are all those Muslims evil and sneaky or just irritating?

May be they want to save your soul Mick? Wonder if this is not a tongue-in-cheek lie? Muslim basher? Did they offer you thousands of dollars? may be free schooling for the kids? may be did not offer to pay yr sleazy motel bill? if they did may be yr name will be AbdulRazzaq ibn Abdul Muhsin ibn abdulMou’ti now??&nbsp;Question marks please&nbsp; be noted

A. Rehman asks if one scandal too many and of course it is.<br />The problem is an old one. <br />Adam listened to his wife and not to God and all his children suffer for their ancestor’s disobedience.<br />Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery and lied to their worried father, saying that wild beasts had killed him. <br />Jesus was betrayed by the kiss of Judas, the disciple who was in charge of the treasury. So we must not be surprized when someone who begins his journey seeking the things of God and ends his journey seeking pleasure beyond what is right.<br /><br />And the second question is a good one to ask…<br />How is it that the saints of God do not recognize a greedy man who would use the Holy Church to rise to power and riches and stop him before he gets too powerful?<br />It is not God’s fault that so many are decieved along with the men who would corrupt the Church. We are taught to listen to the priest or pastor and carefully take note of what they say. This is true, but it is an incomplete truth if we do not also recognize that every man must stand alone before God and answer for his life and the choices he made along the way. When that day comes, we cannot tell God, "the pastor you provided to teach me told me to eat the fruit and I did as I was told. Thinking like that got mankind into its present situation many thousands of years ago. Even our own heart cannot be trusted to always desire the perfect good. Our thoughts must be measured against the timeless words of God and then we pray for wisdom to understand what we have read and the courage to do what is right no matter what the consequence.<br />This is a very simple thing to do, but few people have done the daily work of study, prayer and worship that can train us to distinguish good from evil.<br />Of course our hearts are not at first inclined to love holy things and to love God. But we must not be discouraged, Jesus said what is impossible for a man is possible for God. God gives wisdom to those who ask and grace to the humble. We should pray for pastor Hagee too. He seems to have pride and a great love of riches, but it is not my place to say that it is too late for him to repent. I am still surprized that God did not lose patience with me long ago.<br /><br />

[...] First we had missionaries, then camels in the city, and now we are cracking down on witches and sorcerers. I have a tip for [...]