Tololy's Box

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March 3, 2008
In Opinion
28 comments

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Ø¯ÙˆÙ„ Ø§Ù„Ø¹Ø§Ù„Ù… ØªØ¯Ø¹Ùˆ Ø§Ù„Ù‰ ÙˆÙ‚Ù Ø§Ù„Ø¹Ù†Ù ÙÙŠ ØºØ²Ø© ÙˆØªÙ†Ø¯Ø¯ Ø¨Ø³Ù‚ÙˆØ· Ø§Ù„Ø¶ØØ§ÙŠØ§

I would also like to Ø£Ø³ØªÙ‡Ø¬Ù† Ùˆ Ø£Ø´Ø¬Ø¨ Ùˆ Ø£Ù†Ø¯Ø¯ Ùˆ Ø£Ø³ØªÙ†ÙƒØ± Ùˆ Ø£Ø±ÙØ¶ Ùˆ Ø£Ø¯ÙŠÙ† this outrageous, inhumane, insufferable, unbelievable, atrocious, cannibalistic, internationally condoned, trivialized, Israeli operation in Gaza dubbed The Holocaust. You’d think a people who were so brutally oppressed and tortured and maimed and killed by the Nazis would not want to do the same to other nations. The fact on the ground says otherwise — they are doing exactly the same thing to another people. I suppose when a people are so profoundly maimed, they just have to take it out on others. Where is Freud when you need him, really?

The people who were killed in Gaza during the past few days were not all rocket-launchers. As a matter of fact, MOST of them were civilians, and many were children. The 116 dead, the 350 wounded, the 22 CHILDREN and 12 women dead and gone — did they all launch rockets targeting Israel? Of course not, but that is the classical Israeli excuse in global media. Collateral damage, that’s what they call them.

Bullshit.

Comments for this entry

Abdullah

Yea itâ€™s beyond â€˜Collateral damageâ€™ or â€˜Defensive Actionâ€™ or any of this nonsense itâ€™s simply genocide to unarmed people, what does a six-months old baby has to do with rockets! Itâ€™s much more repugnant, criminally, despised and laborious than The Holocaust, in fact itâ€™s far away from it.Germany still pays for that and all we beg for is pacificationâ€¦ this is bullshit.
May God help and defend them and wake us up to do something.

Israeli made Shoha

even if those killed were rocket launchers, every people have the right to fight for their freedom, if peaceful means fail. and peaceful means have failed long time ago.   israel is having a field day with official Arab silence. this is not much different than the israel mayhem in lebanon. the arab regimes have given the green light. Abu Mazen, the official representative of Tel Aviv to Palestine gave the green light when he accused Gazans of harboring Al-Qaeda. he is complicit in the murders too. i think the arab regimes have sunk to new lows. from fanning sectarian hatreds in iraq and funding sectarian terrorists, to giving israel political cover to kill in Lebanon, and now in Palestine. this malignant tumor has to be extracted. or the arabs will be the  global toilet where any  joe blow comes and shits allover us.

Austin

I was trying to think of a way to put this without coming off as an asshole, but I don’t think I succeeded.  But here it goes anyway: Holocaust comparisons, even those from Israeli MPs or ministers themselves, are just plain silly, and this rhetorical tactic annoys the shit out of me, so I feel the need to address it. There is no Israeli equivalent to the Einsatzgruppen, a paramilitary group of volunteers that murdered more than one million people in open air shootings and let their bodies fall into the mass graves that they dug themselves, including the 33,771 people executed this way in the span of two days in Kiev, September 29-30, 1941.  There is no Israeli Auschwitz, gassing people to death with Zyklon B at a rate of 10,000 per day at its peak operational capacity. Arabs talk of Gaza, of Qana and Qibya and Janin, of Israel’s apartheid
policies, of an occupation that robs people of their dignity–crimes
and tragedies in their own right.  But until I see Israelis freely,
purposefully, and systematically killing tens of thousands of
Palestinians daily and leaving the bodies in ravines, until I see
Israeli factories that enslave Palestinians, gas Palestinians with
insectside, bake Palestinians alive in ovens–until I see these things,
using the image of the Nazi as a rhetorical device to attack Israel is
just nonsense.  If Israelis were Nazis, there would BE no Palestinians
left.  Nazis sought the extermination of an entire people for its own
sake.  Israel marginalizes and occupies and degrades and diminishes the value of life, principally for
the sake of territory, and secondarily for its ironic security
needs–which is awful.  But a far cry from the crimes of the
Nazis…or Stalin’s for that matter.  Or Mao’s during the Cultural
Revolution in China.  Or the Khmer Rouge’s rule in Cambodia.
 The Palestinian tragedy speaks on its own terms.

A.Rehman

WE DENOUNCE AND DEPLORE ….AND ……AND.
Kaasak Ya Wattan.

G.

you are watching too much al jazeera tololy!

Janet

Austin, yes, you should have kept your mouth shut. read international law before your mouth off. According to Article II of
the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of
Genocide, the term is defined as:[A]ny
of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in
part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: 
(a) Killing members of the group; 
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; …"</blockquote>

A.Rehman

Austin, an asshole you are not. The world came a long way since WWII in trying to prevent yet another holocaust, did not succeed always as you mention Mao Tse Dong and Stalin and others. Western leaders after the fact were cursing themselves for not seeing what Hitler was about to do from the days he joined the party, it took Hitler more than 10 years to start implementing his grandiose plans of a master race. Should we keep our eyes shut now and let the Israelis progress toward more genocide or should we pre-empt so as not to allow history to be repeated yet again. Talking size for size , the number of plaestinians killed, maimed , displaced since the early 1900s far exceed that of jews murdered by Nazis in percentage terms.

Craig

Janet, A]ny
of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in
part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: 
(a) Killing members of the group; 
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Which makes Arabs and Muslims guilty of genocide in regards to Israel, the United States, Spain, Darfur, Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, etc. What is your point?

A.Rehman

Janet, good post. It also makes the U.S. guilty of genocide in Afganstan, in Sudan ,Iraq, Serbia,Cuba Bay of Pigs, Veitnam, N.Korea and Iran and Cuba sanctions, Berlin too with the most massive airbombing of civilians in the history of mankind( Berliners were not all Nazi soldiers), wow forget atomizing Hiroshima and Nagazaki in Japan.  And then Britian in Grenada, and India and the Arab world and Italy and Franceand Portugal in North Africa ,Egypt and Syria and the far East. The list is endless. Israel takes the cake though.

Abdullah

I dunno wt is the point from Austin’s and Craig’s posts! Is that an excuse for Jewish to kill single children and women!! They didnâ€™t commit crimes as much as Nazis so they are innocents!! Please people spend more time watching news on RELIABLE media to know exactly what is happening out there.

And for Mr. or Miss G, I think it’s the least thing we can do is to give attention to these issues rather than mocking at people doing that!

Thank you Tol for posting this, there’s still a little humanity on earth.

Austin

Janet, I have to say that I don’t see the connection between your reaction and the actual content of what I said.  The absurd and laughably nebulous "definition" of genocide proffered by the UN source you cited does not speak to the terribly distinguished particulars of Nazi crimes and their ill-established yet frequently used rhetorical links to Israeli crimes.

A.Rehman

Why defend the undefendable.Israeli minister Matan Vilnai said he will bring (Shoah) holocaust to the Palestinians. Read at the link below by BBC
<a href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/01/israelandthepalestinians1&sa=X&oi=news_result&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=2&usg=AFQjCNH0GmBBQT3a-KoDl6QFFjzKWrh3RQ">http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/01/israelandthepalestinians1&sa=X&oi=news_result&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=2&usg=AFQjCNH0GmBBQT3a-KoDl6QFFjzKWrh3RQ</a>

mr.anonymous

Club shajeb rulez!…literally.

Craig

They didnâ€™t commit crimes as much as Nazis so they are innocents!! They don’t commit as many crimes as Muslims, Abullah. Why aren’t you worried about the 1 million Iraqis who have been slaughtered by various Muslim sects in Iraq? Do you even care about that? Do you care about ANY crimes that Muslims commit? Because the rest of us (the non-Muslims) really kinda do. And that’s why Arab/Muslim complaints don’t get much "play" on the world stage.

A.Rehman

America and the West  care a hoot, they destroyed Iraq infrastructure, no power, no water , now roads no hospitals no nothing was left standing. Sent law enforcemnt agencies grass roots to jails or to homes for being with the old regime. Gave power to equally ruthless regime and turned a blind eye to brewing civil war.  Soldier of any country are taught to follow commanding officers orders, had America left the army and police intact they could have been an asset in avoiding civil war, instead they turned most of them into jobless and many into extremism. America wanted the civil war and wanted the instability to justify long term presence and exploit the whole area resources, plus continue the fight against muslims  everywhere – Henry Kissenger legacy and strategic planning. Thank God we have Putin and his new president now who just may balance the world a bit and give thissuffering globe some options.

Austin

Abdullah: I’m not sure what’s so unclear about the point of my post.  I never claimed that Israel was innocent or guilty of anything, other than what is explicity stated in the post (apartheid and unjust occupation).   Furthermore, I explicity stated that Palestinians are suffering a tragedy that  warrants being spoken about on its own terms.  Where, then, do you feel I suggest that Israel is "innocent?"   That, my friend, was not the point.  The point was, contrary to popular rhetoric, Israel does not behave as Nazi Germany. A.Rehman: again, to reiterate, I am not defending Israel (which is not to say that I wouldn’t, but there’s nothing in my previous posts to suggest that I am in this discussion).  Again, I am simply pointing out- contrary to Tololy’s belief and Matan Vilnai’s rather silly statement -Israel has not behaved or done "the exact same thing" as Nazi Germany.  The simple fact that I refuse this comparison, for reasons outlined in my original post, does not mean that I absolve Israel from all alleged wrongdoing . Craig: I’m glad you said that bit about crimes Muslims commit before I did (although I don’t think it really fits with this discussion, in all honesty).  This is one thing that drives me absolutely crazy.   Funny how Arabs  forget that Arabs have killed more Arabs (and I wouldn’t compare them to Nazis, either) than the United States, Zionists/Israel and France combined over the last century.  But that’s a different discussion completely…

Austin

But since you brought it up, I just remembered a certain article I read some time ago… http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6117912.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/world_news/newsid_6118000/6118288.stm

Abdullah

What is exactly that about! Youâ€™re mixing things up again, what does that has to do with killing innocents people in <city w:st="on"><place w:st="on">Gaza</place></city>?!! Am not here to proof to you whether I do or do not care about any things or crimes, the point is that something awful and inhuman is happening on <city w:st="on"><place w:st="on">Gaza</place></city> and the whole world is watching.
And if you wanna name crimes youâ€™ll have to have a list with Americaâ€™s ones first starting with those taking place in Iraq with no need to remind you about â€˜black waterâ€™ but that is AGAIN another subject.
â€˜They donâ€™t commit as many crimes as Muslimsâ€™ â€™ câ€™mon man for Godâ€™s sake read history, <place w:st="on"><city w:st="on">Palestine</city></place>â€™s history from the early 1900s as â€˜A.Rehmanâ€™ mentioned and youâ€™ll change your mind (hopefully).

Crime is a crime, whoever is the responsible, but committing one form any side doesnâ€™t give the right for a third party to slaughter a forth innocent one!

A.Rehman

"Funny how Arabs  forget that Arabs have killed more Arabs (and I wouldnâ€™t compare them to Nazis, either) than the United States, Zionists/Israel and France combined over the last century.  But thatâ€™s a different discussion completelyâ€¦"
Over the last century may be till 1950’s Arabs were never the masters of their own fates, they had many direct masters,Turks, British  and French, Italians then came the indirect MASTER ,the U.S.of A. the masters were pulling the strings since they created the divisions ,the maps and the borders. To say that since Arabs killed each others  makes it right if others kill Arabs is like to say it is okay if Arabs kill some Europeans who decimated more than 50 million of their own in WWII. never mind their bloody history since the dark ages.
We want the killings to stop, period. from whatever side,aggression to cease and all people to get a crack at dignified and peacful existence and mainly injustices be corrected. Palestinians suffered the greatest injustice of all since aboriginals were decimated in America and Australia.

A.Rehman

We all take things for granted, simple things, like going to work 5-10km away every week day, our kids going to school, our farmers being able to send their produce in timely manner, visiting a friend few miles away or in another town, locking our doors every night and not having to wake up to the sound of bombs and figher planes pounding us or to crack units smashing our doors, going to hospitals few miles away when we need to without having to wait hours and days at checkpoints, expecting our men to be back home after a day work or  our children back in one piece at the end of the day. We expect to flick the switch and see light or open the tap and see running water and pick the handset and hear a dial tone.Simple things we take for a given right. Not the palestinians, they are deprived of all – they can’t go to school or work at least not every day, they die on the way to the hospitals, their crops rots before going to market, their dead swell before getting buried beause a 5-10 km drive can take from 10 hours to days if it can be made at all. To visist a friend or a relative in another town is a dream if not a suicidal tendency. Food shortage is the norm so is power and water outage. They are not all in jails but all are jailed between Israelis checkpoints. Living in fear? let us not go into that ,it is too painful to talk about. Palestinians are deprived of every right in every charter or bill of rights the world has quaranteed human beings, in the West dogs and cats have more rights than Palestinians under Israelis military rule.

Austin

Abdullah and A.Rehman: you’re right, the last part of my post had little to do with what’s happening in Gaza, so I apologize for contributing to the drifting of the discussion.  But I felt the need to express solidarity with Craig’s frustration, which is tangentially connected to the original discussion.  That tangential connection is that, if I may speak for a large number of Westerners, so many of us find it hard to appreciate the true suffering that many Muslim peoples, Arabs in particular, undergo when there seems to be a laughable lack of public debate and public introspection (if I may use such a term) about Arab transgressions.  It is much easier to take a people seriously, in their ups and in their tragic downs, when they appear to take personal and public responsibility for their own communities.

A.Rehman

Many are pointing fingers at Arabs for or muslims accusing them of killing and murder and violence. I will join and point my fingers at Arabs too but not for the above, Arabs are no more and probably less violent than others. I wag my fingers at them for speaking what they never meant to do. They threatened annihilation of Israel while they never intended to do the deed and knew that they have not the means of doing that. But the biased media grab the chance to say we told so. Egypt threatened to feed the Jews to the sharks for ‘local consumption’ and went on for the worst defeat because they did not mean it nor prepared for it, their air force was drunk to the tunes of Om Kalthoum and other songestresses. Iran’s AhmadiNejad thrreatened to strike and annihilate Israel and he and we know he don’t mean that even if he has the doubtful capability. But the world took him at his word. Hundreds of groups do the same everyday without the intention nor the ability. It is time Arabs stopped being empty machos and drums and talk what the mean and mean what they say. More than fifty years have passed with every leader telling us Palestine is the pupil of their eyes and they will do this and that to the state of Israel and solve the problem of Palestine. We must learn how to cry, we must learn how whine and complain , we must highlight our suffering and our deaths and our tortured existennce for the world to see otherwise we will get no sympathy. Israel kills and destrys and torture and spread terror all around and cry wolf and the world hear and listen. Arabs die and suffer and get crushed and claim victory. "How aweet is victory" to quote Saddam Hussein when Iraq was in ruins still haunts me to this day. Syria was on the verge of collapse while their radio was claiming shooting Israeli planes like flies, they shot none.. Cry Man . It is alright for a man to cry, our women and children have no more tears left to shed.

A.Rehman

TIME TO LAY DOWN THE GUNS. 
Israel has got the greenest of lights to annihilate the Palestinians. Your brothers can not help you even if they wish.In the current free for all anti-Muslim Anti-Arab times your brothers have bigger stakes than you are worth. Save your lives and your blood and your children so you and or they may live to fight another day another time when the odds are not stacked so high against you. It is called tactical retreat. You can not win this battle at this time. We are bleeding and bleeding that when the time come to claim the trophy nobody is left to recieve it. Bury your guns and carry placards in peaceful demonstration and go about your day to day life. If you can survive then go into general strike – don’t go to work ,don’t go to schools and colleges, if attacked don’t fight back , employ passive resistance. they can not keep everybody in jails and as it is you are already confined to house arrest at best. Enough shedding your blood . You injure an Israeli and lose hundreds and thousands become homeless and hundreds more of dependent lives are devastated forever. My brothers this fight must graduate to the next level, the level of the meek and the weak, armed struggle has failed as others have failed you over the past 100 years. Ghandi did win India’s independence by taking the British head-on. He won it by not fighting back and being himself – a victim. We are victims we just have to live the role. Demonstrate peacefully, shout and cry and weep -they will not bomb you for that ,may be they will claim you are terrorizing their ears and making them deaf but this will not stand in a the court of interntional public opinion. And public opinion is what is this all about nowadays, it is more powerful than bullets and improvised rockets. We think the world knows our plight, believe me they don’t, at least the masses  and the voters don’t. I lived East and West and most think we want to throw the Jews out of their homeland not the other way round. Iam sure I will not be congratulated on this post for sure but I assure you Iam as  Palestinian as they come, I lost my home and land and can not even go to see it and I love every rock and every tree and every clump of mud of Palestine. Do I feel defeated? despaired? Hopeless at least for now? Sure,Sure,Sure. Options exhausted for now. We hit rock bottom with this one so let change tac.  Now time for Hamas and PLO to reconsile then drop their measly arms, resign all posts and surrender the people to Israel. At least Israel will not have the much used excuse for punishing the people claiming they are punishing a terrorist government, we are an occupied country and the occupier must take care of us, that is the int. law. Inviting comments and ideas and opinions and bashers are welcome.

al.

A. Rehman: simply, wow. You just voiced my mind in the most
beautiful way possible. I, as a Palestinian who lives in the Gulf, feel the
most bitter frustration when I hear of actions taken worldwide in the West to protest against the
brutality of <st1:country-region _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
I feel resentment towards this alleged Arab brotherhood that I imagine as a
big-bellied, bold, spineless wimp who overeats, oversleeps, and drowns in his
drool day in and day out, singing tunes of a superficial unity like a drunken
man swerving his way around this world. I resent this brotherhood and sometimes
I wish it didnâ€™t exist. Because at least if it didnâ€™t exist, then we would have
less to be ashamed of.

I ache for <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Palestine</st1:place></st1:city>.

Tololy’s Box » Blog Archive » Holocaust or No Holocaust?

[...] all commentators on a previous post who argued for and against comparing the Israeli atrocities to the holocaust, I found a relevant [...]

A.Rehman

We always fall for the same trap set to us by the Zoinest regime which says Israel values itâ€™s jewish blood dearly and when one is injured by a rocket and an ounce of this blood is spilled Israel is hurting real real bad and thus may be justified in bombing the heck out of us and killing few hundreds of us. Come on people, wake up. The Zionest movement in Europe in an effort to encourage Jewish to immigrate to Palestine killed many of their people and committed crimes and atrocities agaist their own for the final goal of garnering sympathy from the Europeans as well as to make Jewish immigrate by convincing them it is too dangerous to stay among Europeans, that they always blamed the Europeans for such killings was a BONUS. Living in the safe environment of Jordan, or the Gulf or Europe or America we can always advice our people back home to carry on the with fighting Goliath  and disturbing his sleep, if they finish Hamas and itâ€™s leaders and itâ€™s grass roots ( a million?) and countless children and civilians which we seem to envisage or at least not rule out, it is alright , others will take their place! Please donâ€™t give example of Veitnam and General Jiab, the times were different, the world was polarized between West and Russia, they had staunch supporters in China and Russia, large populations , jungles and sympathtic world plus the American  public opinions misgivings which tilted the scales in favour of Veitnam. Palestinians have none of the above I donâ€™t doubt the patriotism of any or their love for their people and their homes and lands but canâ€™t we see the Israeli lies for what they are, canâ€™t we see we are all alone in a highly mismatched contest?  canâ€™t we see how much Israel loves some volatile and charismatic Palestinian leaders as they help them along in committing more atrocities? canâ€™t we see that should our rockets finish Israel is going to supply us some more of course equally more bark and no bite. Many writers admit that Israel can destroy Hamas and kill all but are not doing it because they are scared of getting more radical movements, donâ€™t think this is the real reason, Israelis of course wish that they wake up one day and find the Palestinian gone forever, they want to kill all but they will do it at a time of their choosing and they believe they have all the time in the world to do it so are not in real hurry. It is matter of logistics for them, a matter of how and when meanwhile if we can help them along it is a BONU

A.Rehman

HOW WE SUPPORTED ISRAEL’S AGGRESSION.
Israel never ever wanted peace with the Arabs but they never had to say that because we  never gave then the chance, we always were the first to say we don’t want peace. For close to five deacdes we made life cozy for the zionist state. They will bomb us to a pulp and cry we want peace hkabibi, we want shalom international commmunity, we want negotations  world public opinion but what a small weak state like us can do when the mighty Arabs are out for our blood. Look at them Arabs saying No peace, No surrender and No negotiations. Nothing did more damage to our cause than the three NOs.  We scoff at the international public opinion and we don’t realize it is the same one that did us in because we failed to address it the way Israel and it’s lobbyists did. The public opinion that count now is the Western one and mainly the American one and they are not on our side and THEY COUNT. they change governments and presidents and they change senators and representatives and members of parliamnets(in Europe). They shape the policies. They may be misguided and mislead and misinformed but THEY COUNT. No senator or president dares go against their wishes. Israel realized that and dealt the right cards and spent money, heaps of money, buying TV stations and newspapers and radio stations spewing anti-Arab and Anti-Palestinians propaganda while we were lulled in  isolation and blessed ignorance or are fired up by macho slogans always counting on our just cause to make others understand our plight.  But not all is lost we can change that. Israel dizzy with successes now is losing it’s caution and making one blunder after the other we have only to capitalize on that and speak what the world want to hear loud and clear, that we are victims of aggression, torture and murder and we want to live in peace, that we are entitled to our homes and to our lands and our children also have the right to play and laugh and be merry like the children of the world. And for once ,just for once, let us direct our talk not only to our own people but to the world  at large.

A.Rehman

Al, many identify with what was said and feel hopeless sadly few voice their opinions and logic and reason get drowned .

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